tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post1389721165121231970..comments2016-04-26T10:42:25.462-07:00Comments on The Daily Lipid: Reflections on the "Don't Eat Anything With a Face" Debate, Part 1: Overall Impressions and LessonsChris Masterjohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09922003080748568167noreply@blogger.comBlogger111125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-55226354308386297942014-03-25T07:08:09.877-07:002014-03-25T07:08:09.877-07:00Excellent hard-hitting analysis Mike! Thanks for ...Excellent hard-hitting analysis Mike! Thanks for sharing your perspective.Maureen McGovernnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-90116394469145938682014-03-14T23:01:41.732-07:002014-03-14T23:01:41.732-07:00So your opposition gets a victory meal of salad wh...So your opposition gets a victory meal of salad while you get salad AND delicious meat. <br /><br />When vegetarians mention meat studies and their links to disease, they fail to mention carbohydrate intake. Nathaniel Russellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06415426223638415618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-89238534497026406942014-02-25T21:20:05.305-08:002014-02-25T21:20:05.305-08:00Yes, I could, and relish it every chewy, luscious...Yes, I could, and relish it every chewy, luscious bite, dripping with fat. <br />I worked in a meat room where the butchers were cutting up meat and I was wrapping it for the meat case out in the store. I&#39;ve watched many an exposé of inhumane and deplorable factory farming and feedlot/slaughterhouse conditions. And while the way we get our meat, at present, is, yes, WRONG, the meat is not the wrong, the productions methods are. Migrant agricultural workers work &amp; LIVE in deplorable, inhumane conditions. Yet, I am sure you haven&#39;t quit eating lettuce or oranges. Grain farming is just as factory-oriented as any other farming, with the small farmer being pushed out of existence. GMOs and pesticide/poison-ridden crops are taking over the lansdscape Yet, you eat bread, of some sort, every meal.<br />The issue of correct food production is actually something omnivores and vegans have in common. <br />The issue of the need for animal products is an aside, once proper land &amp; animal management becomes the focus.Hélènenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-66536134043769229542014-02-18T13:40:34.443-08:002014-02-18T13:40:34.443-08:00I&#39;d always heard it as &quot;don&#39;t eat any...I&#39;d always heard it as &quot;don&#39;t eat anything that runs away from you.&quot; Which always raised the question of, well, suppose you can coax it up to you and clobber it?<br /><br />Seriously, I turned vegetarian in 1969 when I got a good, close look at the meat and poultry industries. I think it&#39;s fine to eat meat--if you have the guts to raise it and then kill it yourself. But the meat industry itself is sickening, but buying slabs of beef wrapped in plastic at Safeway presents me with a serious moral problem.<br /><br />Maybe others feel differently. I know that I can go to a winery, tour the facilities and vineyards, and then enjoy a glass of wine afterwards.<br /><br />I think that meat-eaters should see if they can tour a slaughterhouse and then see if they can settle down to a nice, juicy steak.David Isaakhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-71775102026751311732014-02-18T13:31:46.465-08:002014-02-18T13:31:46.465-08:00But we live in a celeb-dominated society. Denise i...But we live in a celeb-dominated society. Denise is brilliant, but, more important, Denise is hot.<br /><br />So, unfair as it may be, this can only enhance his cred. (cf. As Seen On TV.)David Isaakhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-47941879618283445542014-01-30T08:32:22.244-08:002014-01-30T08:32:22.244-08:00Chris, I enjoyed watching the debate. I probably d...Chris, I enjoyed watching the debate. I probably don&#39;t have the guts to do something like that, so it&#39;s great not only that you did the debate, but that you posted some very good reflections on it. You&#39;ve got the brains, I think all you need is practice.<br /><br />Insects have faces, and billions (trillions even) are killed in order to do this thing called agriculture. I don&#39;t recall this even being mentioned. Insects are a vitally important source of nutrition for people in many parts of the world, so it could have been mentioned along with the importance of livestock for so much of the world&#39;s poor. I&#39;m sure it probably wouldn&#39;t help to question the very premise of agriculture in this particular debate, but being repetitive about the violence of agriculture and the necessary complexity of ecosystems certainly wouldn&#39;t have hurt. There is no rational, much less research-based, reason to believe that agriculture without animals can be ecologically viable.<br /><br />The ethical appeals to avoid killing are also worth hammering on repetitively, again going back to the violence of agriculture. It&#39;s okay to be blunt, even graphic, about the starvation, dehydration, poisoning, and predation required to keep plant-eating animals from destroying crops. How many birds and squirrels and deer would you have die so you can eat plants? Beyond that, things that die of natural causes are perfectly edible from an ethical standpoint. You could even argue that it would be unethical to eat them because of their tremendous nutrient density and the tremendous solar energy input required to sustain them in life. But really, not killing animals directly is a total cop-out given the wide-scale indirect killing required to sustain agriculture, and that&#39;s worth mentioning several times so it will stick in the audience&#39;s minds.<br /><br />By this point, the only way to sustain the proposition (&quot;don&#39;t eat anything with a face&quot;) is to then point to weak scientific evidence about how meat is harmful. The appeal to smoking I thought was terrible and was worth beating them up over: avoiding meat doesn&#39;t cut your heart disease risk 20-fold, not even close. The quality of the science is simply not comparable, and it borders on dishonesty even to attempt it. The Adventist studies show that vegetarianism (plus a variety of lifestyle confounders) only delays the onset of chronic degenerative diseases, it doesn&#39;t prevent them. Good science is reproducible: after all this time, who has replicated these tiny studies that show benefits when sick people switching to veganism? If we&#39;re going to support the proposition on the basis of science, we&#39;re not even close to the arena of something like smoking.<br /><br />Anyway, those are more or less the bounds that I would confine myself if I were ever to attempt a debate like this. The proposition was very strong, and the support for it was very weak in comparison. Picking a few key points and being really repetitive is probably the best that can be done in that kind of situation.Nathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-29299468319864307302014-01-29T04:51:55.353-08:002014-01-29T04:51:55.353-08:00Hey Chris, I congratulate you on publicly reviewi...Hey Chris,<br /><br />I congratulate you on publicly reviewing your &#39;performance&#39; and openly recognising the importance of swaying minds in a debate setting compared to making an argument in a scientific journal (for example). That sort of self-awareness and honesty is reassuring (although, it should never make us complacent).<br /><br />I STRONGLY suggest you listen to Christopher Hitchens debating his &#39;opposition&#39; (he&#39;s not alive anymore unfortunately). Regardless of your political/spiritual/religious views I&#39;d be ASTOUNDED if you didn&#39;t find any value in learning from this mans capacity for debating even the most dogmatic &#39;opponents&#39;. He is truly one of a kind when it comes to the art of rhetoric and logical argumentation.<br /><br />I hope to see you engaged in more debates in the future. Good luck &amp; cheers!raphihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08992252569979714724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-12333622351067682462014-01-23T07:07:18.585-08:002014-01-23T07:07:18.585-08:00Chris, First, thank you for your blog. I apprec...Chris,<br /> First, thank you for your blog. I appreciate your sharing your own personal nutritional journey and especially the education relating to &quot;biology/metabolism&quot; of human nutrition. <br /> Second, I enjoyed the debate. I have read books and articles from each of the presenters so it was nice to see each of you &quot;in person&quot;. Unfortunately, while a debate such as that hopefully triggers thoughts in the audience, (and the presenters too), I don&#39;t think that the most important thing was to win the debate so much as to have the debate and raise issues/awareness (don&#39;t get me wrong, if I were in your shoes, I&#39;d want to win and hone my debate skills as well.) My labored point is that the best thing the debate could do was raise issues and generate more questions. I think that all four of you are intelligent, concerned, and have good intentions. In some cases there may have to be an agreement to disagree, but I do think as you pointed out there was more to agree on than not. It would be nice if more issues could be explored in a more &quot;rational&quot; way than &quot;entertaining&quot; but I realize that is part of the environment of the debate.<br /> As a currently practicing vegetarian, I want to keep an open mind. I think there are obvious pitfalls in the &quot;modern&quot; American diet. My doctor, whom I respect, chided me about weight gain, cholesterol levels, blood pressure rising, and blood sugar elevations. He was right, but his recommendation was Lipitor and I wanted to avoid that. So I switched to a vegetarian diet. It has helped me drop 15-20 pounds and maintain a stable weight. My blood pressure, sugar level, and cholesterol levels have dropped. <br /> Despite all of those benefits, I am still concerned that I may be missing out on nutrients by restricting my diet. I am eliminating some of the obvious bad habits and by paying attention to fresh fruit, vegetables, and whole wheat, hopefully increasing my nutritional intake but I don&#39;t want to fall victim to unsubstantiated theories and mistake short term benefits for long term sustainable habits. The human body is an amazingly complex organism and I don&#39;t think we will ever completely understand it, but it does make for an incredible challenge! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-81025609393367040012014-01-05T15:06:18.154-08:002014-01-05T15:06:18.154-08:00We can&#39;t argue with success. Eating a plant b...We can&#39;t argue with success. Eating a plant based diet has reversed heart disease, with resulting cessation of drugs under a physician&#39;s direction. Blood tests and heart function tests, along with ultrasound confirmed the reversal. After only a year of 95% plant based eating, there is no sign of the damage from two previous heart attacks.<br />In addition E.D. was reversed after suffering from disfunction for twenty years!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-47530835602873503902014-01-02T22:21:06.990-08:002014-01-02T22:21:06.990-08:00As a former debater and coach, I find your analysi...As a former debater and coach, I find your analysis encouraging for your future success in a debate format. You are absolutely correct, debating requires a different skill set than presenting in an unchallenged format. One of those skills is an accurate post-mortem. Most novice debaters can&#39;t recognize where they lost. <br /><br />Leading with your strongest point is very important. If you plot the attention span of a listener it would resemble an inverse bell curve. Attention is highest at the very beginning and the very end of a speech. <br /><br />As for the debate itself, I found it disappointing as a learning opportunity . . . at least in terms of veganism. I found the the affirmatives insistence to coach their response to the resolution as CAFO-only disingenuous. As I consider my own dietary choices--what balance of animals and vegetables to eat--I crave accurate insight into the effects of differing foods on the body. <br /><br />If I interpret IntelligenceSquared&#39;s mission correctly--to present honest, thoughtful discussion on critical issues, the Affirmative sacrificed an opportunity to educate in order to win the debate.Jeff Simonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03642242472076985386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-21005771228862499212013-12-16T18:55:30.128-08:002013-12-16T18:55:30.128-08:00Hi Chris, are you currently working with and organ...Hi Chris, are you currently working with and organizations to see if your beliefs truly work or not? Also i was curious to hear more about when Barnard mentioned you had health issues before you changed your diet and many of us don&#39;t know what you truly ate as a vegan/vegetarian?dajoker121http://www.blogger.com/profile/04294855876492085693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-41358668162788622302013-12-15T12:27:55.786-08:002013-12-15T12:27:55.786-08:00Please don&#39;t think that more &quot;snappy one-...Please don&#39;t think that more &quot;snappy one-liners&quot; like Salatin&#39;s would have helped your cause. My previous familiarity with Salatin was through Michael Pollan&#39;s work - seeing him speak for himself, I lost respect for him. I think his reliance on ludicrous red herrings and cutesy comments cost you in a crowd of people who are intelligent enough to want to sit through a serious debate of that length. You were definitely the stronger debater on your side.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-37019298224269842842013-12-14T14:56:24.701-08:002013-12-14T14:56:24.701-08:00Chris, could you do an article on pork and liver p...Chris, could you do an article on pork and liver problems, probably from hepatits E in it.<br />Did you see paul jaminet article on trouble with pork and the graph of countries with liver chirosis and pork consumption<br />This is a topic that is really interesting to and almost nothing on the internetMrEspirit91http://www.blogger.com/profile/17496356958447288526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-9177186724358913842013-12-14T07:56:00.473-08:002013-12-14T07:56:00.473-08:00i did not listen to the debate because I know how ...i did not listen to the debate because I know how close minded and &quot;know it all&quot; that Dr. Barnard is and I always want to yell at him. Many vegans have the same attitude. It is a way of life that many times gives them that superior attitude. Freddie Arbuthnothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06492818561987346684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-7772945161363628122013-12-13T10:14:51.689-08:002013-12-13T10:14:51.689-08:00As a long time WAPF member I am worried about the ...As a long time WAPF member I am worried about the number of young (under 10 years old) children who have chosen to be vegetarians. I meet them all the time. In most cases, their parents are not vegetarians. There is some mechanism by which these young children are being influenced and their parents are going along with it. My best guess is that so many people have been so far removed from where food comes from that they start to see all animals as the beloved family dog. Yet they would have no problem stepping on a cockroach. Despite &quot;loosing&quot; the debate I&#39;m glad that the topic is being debated. I think the time has passed to politely agree to disagree because it will be disastrous for the children. So, thank you Chris for your efforts!!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-3162901234124089952013-12-12T03:59:47.886-08:002013-12-12T03:59:47.886-08:00Getting someone to not eat meat is like getting so...Getting someone to not eat meat is like getting someone to change their religious belief. If you have felt that way all your life it is going to take more than an hour long debate. But for those that do decide to adopt a vegan diet, they should do it with their eyes wide open. I adopted a vegan diet after a lot of research. After the research, I casually mentioned it to my endocrinologist expecting him to say that it was not worth it and he said he thought it would be a good idea for me. I was surprised considering that my doctor is far from being a vegan. Just one look at him and you can see the man loves his meat. My decision to go vegan was way before I heard of Dr. Barnard. I did it to get rid of my Type 2 diabetes, which I am happy to report is gone. I was and still am under doctor&#39;s supervision because this is not a diet that every doctor comes into contact with every day. Both of my parents had Type 2 diabetes. One died because of complications from the disease and the other from breast cancer. I knew I didn&#39;t want to die that way. After being a diabetic for more than 15 years, I&#39;m happy to diabetes free. I did it for me and nobody else. No animal rights agenda. I really don&#39;t give a damn about PETA and their pushy agenda. I don&#39;t tell my friends what they should or should not eat. I do get more protein than my meat eating friends and I am happy when they don&#39;t belittle me for my health choices. I think people try things on a whim without full knowledge of the consequences like a fad diet and end up sick or dead. People have died from every diet out there. Everybody is different. I don&#39;t believe there is one diet that fits all. People do need to learn to respect each other&#39;s choices to live their life as they see fit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-10341431590731925712013-12-11T21:35:39.111-08:002013-12-11T21:35:39.111-08:00Interestingly, a recent study out of Harvard that ...Interestingly, a recent study out of Harvard that has been trying to spin meat and dairy consumption into a bad thing, may in fact be bad news for vegans. The study found that people who eat more meat and dairy produce more stomach acid, and therefore produce more bilophila in the digestive system that feeds on it. The study assumes that increased bilophila is a bad thing, because it has been shown to increas inflammation in mice, but it ignores the fact that stomach acid is essential for the effective absorption of vitamin B12, so not surprisingly, people who are low in B12, vegans, suffer from astronomically higher rates of severe B12 deficiency than omnivores. <br /><br />Here is an NPR link about the story. NPR really likes to exaggerate the significance of anti-meat stories, so I am beginning to expect that someone there has an agenda:<br />http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/12/10/250007042/chowing-down-on-meat-and-dairy-alters-gut-bacteria-a-lot-and-quickly?utm_content=socialflow&amp;utm_campaign=nprfacebook&amp;utm_source=npr&amp;utm_medium=facebook<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-32926388389795219242013-12-11T13:13:32.387-08:002013-12-11T13:13:32.387-08:00&quot;Personal attack&quot; sounds like a tactic h...&quot;Personal attack&quot; sounds like a tactic he would have used regardless of what you had said.js290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-47446986520121184452013-12-11T09:02:31.005-08:002013-12-11T09:02:31.005-08:00I agree with you 100%, Stephan.I agree with you 100%, Stephan.Mike Parkerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16023304770186091811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-69667084094986662712013-12-11T06:42:22.070-08:002013-12-11T06:42:22.070-08:00Yes, Simon, but I also think that for some of us w...Yes, Simon, but I also think that for some of us who have been eating a WAPF type of diet for a long time, and who have really thought about it and learned about it, our approach can also be a very important part of our sense of self as well. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-35128781254749163292013-12-11T02:08:27.059-08:002013-12-11T02:08:27.059-08:00Apologies if this point has been raised elsewhere,...Apologies if this point has been raised elsewhere, but another reason that you&#39;re fighting an uphill battle is that you are presenting to an audience of &quot;people&quot; that eat meat, and &quot;vegetarians&quot;.<br /><br />By that, I mean that &quot;being a vegetarian&quot; is typically a very important part of an individual&#39;s sense of self (I used to be one myself, so can speak from experience). <br /><br />Admitting that your beliefs may have been wrong, that you&#39;ve been avoiding meat unnecessarily is a huge psychological step, plus it may alienate you from your peers.<br /><br />For your average person, who happens to eat meat, just like almost everyone else, there&#39;s no stigma attached to saying &quot;maybe this isn&#39;t such a good idea&quot;. On the contrary, due to the commonly held (incorrect) beliefs about meat eating, they&#39;ll probably garner respect.<br /><br />A better test of the effectiveness of the debate, would be to somehow track the numbers (not percentages) of actually changing their eating habits. It&#39;s easy to say &quot;OK, maybe eating meat is not such a great thing&quot;, but actually not eating meat is another kettle of tofu altogether.<br /><br />Great work anyway, and your arguments certainly helped me reconfirm my beliefs and decision to change from veggie, to ethical pasture raised meat eater ;-)Simon Whyatthttp://www.livenowthrivelater.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-12328994258326129822013-12-10T22:39:31.276-08:002013-12-10T22:39:31.276-08:00I agree that this was part of why the &quot;for&qu...I agree that this was part of why the &quot;for&quot; side won, but I think its contribution is relatively small compared to all the other factors that have been discussed here.Tom Jeannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11830745967830134664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-8673804491078252782013-12-10T20:19:06.459-08:002013-12-10T20:19:06.459-08:00Hi Richard, Yes you can use the contact form here...Hi Richard,<br /><br />Yes you can use the contact form here, and I will respond from my email:<br /><br />https://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/contact-cholesterol-and-health.html<br /><br />ChrisChris Masterjohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09922003080748568167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-65485585502030795702013-12-10T19:16:44.660-08:002013-12-10T19:16:44.660-08:00*no* love. Long day ;)*no* love. Long day ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5977689274110133568.post-16978375960131470052013-12-10T17:54:53.490-08:002013-12-10T17:54:53.490-08:00Tom Jeanne, for what it&#39;s worth, someone else,...Tom Jeanne, for what it&#39;s worth, someone else, behealthynow, originally cited Activist Cash. As mentioned, I have know love for them, and would definitely recommend taking anything that they say with a grain of salt. That said, much of whatr they say about the PCRM and Farm Sanctuary is a matter of public record, and the quotes that they cite speak for themselves. <br /><br />The book that I referenced, Eco-Terrorism by Donald Liddick is a more scholarly approac. It details the terrorist connections between the PCRM, PeTA, and the ALF, the FBI&#39;s number one domestic terrorist threat, in great detail:<br />http://books.google.com/books?id=I-i09nTSSAkC&amp;pg=PP4&amp;lpg=PP4&amp;dq=eco-terrorism+liddick&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=Xe-DgzsuG8&amp;sig=wdYzgxnORmUKYiuJHl68iId8bmg&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=qcWnUorvF-mh2AXapICoCw&amp;ved=0CGoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&amp;q=eco-terrorism%20liddick&amp;f=false<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com